UPDATE: If you are reading this post you are not in Turkey. Apparently this site is being blocked by their government or someone. We will keep you posted on what we discover….
I was listening to an interview with a Turkish tour guide today. She was asked about the role that Fundamentalist Islam was playing in Turkey today. She said that there was a bit of a rise in fundamentalism in society, but that “we are taking our measures against them.”
Turkey defines itself as a secular nation, even though it is 99% Muslim. The U.S. is a much less homogeneous society and was founded on the ideas of religious tolerance and religious freedom. So I wonder why we have to be called a Christian nation? Aren’t we a secular nation with a problem with fundamentalists that we aren’t willing to address?
November 13, 2007 at 10:34 pm
We are not a Christian nation. The notion that we are a Christian nation is one foisted upon us only recently. “In God We Trust” and “one nation under god” were added to the currency and the pledge only recently — in the 1950s. Look it up.
The treaty of Tripoli, signed by Pres. John Adams and ratified by the Senate says: “… the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion …” (look it up yourself, don’t trust my ellipses.)
God and/or Jesus are mentioned zero times in the Constitution (count them yourself). Does that sound like the constitution of a Christian nation?
Thomas Jefferson was, at most, a deist, and made his own version of the Bible from which he literally cut — with a razor — all references to the supernatural.
Those that proclaim the U.S. to be a “Christian Nation” are ignorant, lying, or both.
November 13, 2007 at 10:40 pm
Thanks for stopping by, scary.
I agree with you and thanks for the references.
November 13, 2007 at 11:15 pm
“Our true mentor in life is science.”
- Ataturk
“Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear.”
- Jefferson
November 14, 2007 at 9:08 am
“Like John Adams knows anything about the beliefs of the Founding Fathers!”
- James Dobson
November 14, 2007 at 11:51 am
Yes – Kemal Ataturk is one of history’s great strongmen. Though some of his tactics were dictatorial, his belief in the importance of a secular society should be remembered and held dear.
Just be careful about banning the fez – they are hilarious hats.
November 14, 2007 at 12:55 pm
George – Sweet Mustafa K. reference!
I read a bibgraphy of MK Ataturk over the summer. (Full disclosure: Donviti, Von Cracker and I have a very close friend from Turkey.) Ataturk was a bad motherfucker, but he believed strongly in Western secular ideals. (He even learned French so he could read enlightenment thinker in their own language.) George Bush thinks we ought to teach Intelligent Design along with evolution in biology class. Like magic is an alternative to science…
Take a look at the rallies in Turkey earlier this year (do you remember). Millions of Turks came out to remind the new government (Erdogan and Gul) that although they are strict Muslims, the Turkish people aren’t interested in any religious tom-foolery in public life.
Turkey has had two military coups to protect Ataturk’s secular ideals!
November 14, 2007 at 1:22 pm
I found this quote. You might find it intesting. I wish Ataturk himself would have said this to a few leader I know today.
“I have no religion, and at times I wish all religions at the bottom of the sea. He is a weak ruler who needs religion to uphold his government; it is as if he would catch his people in a trap. My people are going to learn the principles of democracy, the dictates of truth and the teachings of science. Superstitions must go. Let them worship as they will; even man can follow his own conscience, provided it does not interfere with sane reason or bid him act against the liberty of his follow-men.”
-Mustafa Kemal Ataturk 1926
November 14, 2007 at 4:51 pm
Actually, I’d say that we are a Christian nation, not by law, but clearly by culture. We organize our lives around Christian traditions (Sunday as a day of rest) and Christian holidays, and our culture is based on Christian traditions. Even in the negative, we emphasize a Christian bias: American atheists, in general, aren’t rejecting the Koran or Hindu teachings, but have devoted their thought primarily toward rejecting Christian and Jewish teachings and theology. Where American literature is concerned with religion, it is concerned with Christianity.
Commenters above mentioned a few historical people and quotes, but they are remarkable because they are by far the exception.
November 14, 2007 at 7:49 pm
Dana – You’re correct in a sense. Our culture certainly has Christian underpinnings. But Ataturk and Jefferson are exceptions? They’re exceptional, but hardly exceptions. Moreover I think the bit about American atheists being most strident against Christians is nonsense.
Perhaps it’s because they happen to be here to fight with, so it’s more visible? Sam Harris opens chapter 1 of “The End of Faith” with a story about Islam and terrorists and also devotes more pages debunking the Koran then the Bible.
Hitchens’ work is similar (he’s a naturalized American). Dan Dennett’s “Breaking the Spell” has no particular nemesis – only the meme of religion itself.
If it helps, I’m an American atheist and I think it is all superstitious rubbish. I find it all equally ridiculous
November 14, 2007 at 8:05 pm
Turkey is a unique country indeed. Attaturk had one priority-uniting his country and any one else’s agenda which might create schisms along any deep fault lines was dealt with toute d’suite. I have flown to Istanbul at least a hundred times and Attaturk is still revered.
America has a different outlook. We all have agendas.
November 15, 2007 at 7:36 am
I found this article purely by chance. This morning I was surprised to find that access to this site was banned by a Turkish court order. Looking around, the only topic that mentioned Turkey was this one. So why the censorship? Is the government so annoyed with the positive comments about Ataturk? Just like most of the things they do, the government is ignorant about what it can and can’t do.
Yes, Ataturk is very dear to us. He was a unique person in so many ways. He brought Turkey (the Ottoman empire at that time)out of dark ages and put us on a path along with the civilized western countries. If it wasn’t for Ataturk, the present day Turkey would have been just one of the third world countries in the Middle East most of which do not even have a slight resemblance to democracy.
I have spent a great deal of time in the USA and Europe and have a very good understanding of western culture and the tendency to view Turkey. I agree with the above comment, Turkey is a unique place. There is about a 10-15 % moslem fundamentalist population but most of the Turks have braced secularism and their attitude towards religion is no different than in western countries.
The best example of this is that during the holy month of ramadan, many people do not consume alcohol, but as soon as the month is over raki sales go up again (raki is the Turkish ouzo).
More than 600,000 people visited Ataturk’s mausoleum last week to commemorate the day he died.
Fortunately, the love of Ataturk and his ideals are deeply embedded in the vast majority of Turks and the armed forces have a duty given to them by the constitution to protect the ideals of Ataturk. In that respect, the Turkish military is also unique and most Turks find that the military is the most trusted establishment in Turkey.
November 15, 2007 at 7:44 am
Well, I’m one of your much-hated wingnuts. I believe America is a Christian nation, but not because all the people are Christians, or even the Founding Fathers. I believe it is a Christian nation because if you look at the whole course of history since Christ, you can see the zeal (nucleus) of the Christian religion moving from Rome throughout Europe, to Germany, to Britain, to America, and now to the non-European world.
America is quickly becoming a secularized nation (in contrast to the past), and the zeal can more appropriately be seen in places like Brazil, Africa, and the underground church in China. But the torch has not fully passed yet. America has been the main proponent and funder of Christian international missions, revivals, evangelicalism (or what you call “fundamentalism) since at least the 1850s, perhaps before.
The non-secularized Muslims all know this, and along with our secular evangelism which they also hate (i.e. Hollywood), they is why they target America (and probably Britain next, and the other European countries after that). They think once they get us, their two dueling enemies of Christianity and secular humanism will cease.
November 15, 2007 at 8:27 am
US fundamentalism is divorced from the teachings of Jesus. So are mainstream Protestants and Catholics, though in a more benign way.
November 15, 2007 at 8:34 am
How ’bout that $23,000.00 tiolet what’s-her-name the evangelista shits on? And Benny Hinn! Another disciple of Christ with a private jet!
If you think Christ was pissed about the money lenders in the Temple, wait’ll you see what He does to these guys!
November 15, 2007 at 9:27 am
To say that America is a christian nation is no more true than to say we are a misogynistic, racist nation.
I mean, if you are going to take the characteristics of the citizens who were here during the inception of this nation and apply them to us today, why don’t we go all the way?
November 15, 2007 at 10:25 am
Read Thomas Paine, he’ll offer you the clearest idea that reason and not religion must dominate the affairs of the nation for it to remain a republic. His warning is very apropo. Check him out.
November 15, 2007 at 10:28 am
For all the affection I have for Turks, if we are talking about Ataturk and the young Turk movement, everyone should go out and get the book Tigris Burning. Excellent Book.
November 15, 2007 at 12:21 pm
Guh, of course it’s a “Christian” nation — it sure as hell shouldn’t be, but it is. As stated, our money says “in God we trust,” not in Buddha or Goddess we trust
In the workplace or other public gathering places, it’s generally fine and dandy to chat mildly about your Christian beliefs, but not so true with many other belief systems. Not if you value your job or business (especially true in the South)…
And sheeot, look at our laws, you don’t think a multitude of them are based on Christian beliefs? Prostitution, suicide, (abortion), drug use… Why would these things be illegal? Why wouldn’t an individual have a natural human right, the FREEDOM, to own/govern his/her own body??
The basis for law should be solely about FREEDOM, and whether or not a certain act truly harms OTHERS, not oneself. No, prostitution does not harm others. It’s a fact that the illegality of it is what actually harms society. Drug use, in an of itself, it harms no one but the user. So again, why are these illegal? Christian law.
The arrogance of Christians is a clue. They go in anywhere with their chests out, flapping their tongues freely about what they believe… They gasp, and seem genuinely appalled and stunned at the idea that prayer should not be part of all children’s public schooling, that we don’t want their frickin’ ten commandments in OUR government buildings. They’d freak if other religios beliefs were to be posted, held higher, in that way. They would swoon with disbelief at the very idea. Again, they know who’s the favored child in this nation — it’s blatant.
This nation is about controlling us to the point of no longer having freedom, and it’s getting away with it in the name of what’s supposedly “right” per the “good book.” And our acceptance of it, our complacence, has been and continues to be a surety that it will only get worse.
Look at our nation — what it’s become. Again, of course, it’s Christian.
November 15, 2007 at 1:44 pm
As this debate progresses through the comments, I realize the historical implications behind the secularism.
All three times mentioned: the Founding Fathers, Attaturk after WWI, and today, were coming off some bad times where religions had wreaked havoc among its everyday citizens lives.
The founding fathers were aware of the waste imposed by the religious wars of Europe throughout the 16th and 17th Centuries. Attaturk was familiar with the Moslem’s Sunni-Shiites battles of religious dominance. Today we have a president who while campaigning in Iowa said his hero was Jesus and has since pushed us into a war we can’t win, has ballooned the deficit into a debt we can’t pay, and has initiated a Faith Based Initiative so his maladministration can bleed all the faith ministries dry while he spends his resources on his pet projects…..
There is no doubt as to why we are hearing more pining today for secularism than we heard throughout the entire Clinton presidency……for religious conservatives, those were truly the “good old days.”
November 15, 2007 at 1:46 pm
To scaryreasoner and others:
I, as a Christian, would fully agree with what you say about the founding fathers and such. Our federal laws are influenced by Judeo-Christian values, but we’re not by any mans the only country in the world or the only judicial system that values life and ownership and respect of authority and so on.
Dana:
However, I also agree with you in that our nation is highly influenced by the Christian faith and calendar as well. No matter how you look at it, our nation does operate under Christian assumptions. You can blame Constantine for starting that.
Jaime:
Yes at one point in American history, we probably could have been considered a Christian nation. But not so anymore.
Anon:
In as kind a way I can say it: get off your high horse and quite thinking that whatever brand of Christianity your professing has got it all figured out. I fall squarely in the moderate Christianity camp but I would never go so far as to claim that I have all the answers and other legitimate Christian groups – i.e. those who claim Jesus Christ as the Son of God and salvation by faith alone – are not Christian. God is a lot bigger than you or your world.
Disbelief:
Despite what you see on t.v., I’ve never met a true Christian (see above) who actually believes a thing people the likes of Benny Hinn say and teach. Even most Pentecostals shutter at what he does for the faith. There is nothing he does that even remotely lines up with what the Bible teaches – even by the most liberal of interpretations.
Dovelove:
I’m sorry about your experiences. They really are unfortunate. I’m currently living in western Michigan. My experience here has been very similar to what you describe about not being able to voice a non-Christian opinion in public. Even as a Christian, I often find myself discriminated for challenging people’s rather narrow perceptions of what it means to be Christian. But before moving here, I lived in Oregon and before that California. Especially in Oregon, the exact opposite is true. More often than not, Christians specifically are discriminated against while virtually every other faith is accepted with open arms. All I ask is that you consider American society on a broader scale when you speak in such generalities with all things – not just religion. One last note: your emphasis on “FREEDOM” translates to anarchy. Absolute freedom create total anarchy.
November 15, 2007 at 2:47 pm
Evangelist = Evil’s Agent
November 15, 2007 at 3:02 pm
With all this talk about our laws being influenced by judeo-christian philosophy makes it sound like other non-jc societies condoned murder, theft, rape, etc.
Maybe it’s more to do with self and community preservation, which has been around long before the story of Exodus, and resembles a Humanistic view of life instead of a particular religion.
I do know for certain our laws were/are influenced by the Magna Carta, Locke, Rousseau, et al…all of which identify a singular human trait – It’s called REASON
I think all this j-c talk is bogarting the credit on why our judicial and legislative philosophies are the way they are.
November 15, 2007 at 3:51 pm
Ahh, but as any watcher of the original Star Trek episodes knows too well, the cold rational Spock reasoning is NOT always right, nor is the knee jerk emotional fanaticism of Dr. McCoy. It is only when both are conglomerated with bad acting in the form of the original Captain Kirk character, that humanism triumphs over the best that aliens have to offer………
November 15, 2007 at 4:01 pm
“The basis for law should be solely about FREEDOM, and whether or not a certain act truly harms OTHERS, not oneself.”
I suppose this is the statement to which you refer. If that’s what you call anarchy, then I’m good with that
Your statement: “God is a lot bigger than you or your world.”
Yes she is, heh
and she wants us to truly be free. And the primary reason our world is in the mess it’s in is because of all of our controlling systems that are choking the life out of us, including religion.
Humans were meant to be free and they either will be or they will self-destruct. Behold our world rapidly approaching that point. I hold fear-based (judging/hating, instilling self-loathing in people — “sinners,” “wretches”) relgion solely responsible for that. You teach a people they are low lifes, sorry “sinners” and are nothing without some fantasy, vengeful, contradictory god, and then expect them to create a world that is loving and peaceful??
Look where all your control crap has gotten us? Oh wait, I’ll bet everything’s falling apart because we STILL don’t have ENOUGH prisons, laws, policeman…and still not enough churches and people sitting in pews being brainwashed into believing they either bow their asses down or they’re gonna fry in hell. Yep, that’ll fix our world. Ya’ think?
Oregon, yeah, I used to live there — I loved it
November 15, 2007 at 4:16 pm
Spock was logical, not rational.
November 15, 2007 at 4:20 pm
But I get your point.
November 15, 2007 at 4:26 pm
[...] after reading this post by a Turkish Citizen I decided to contact a Turkish friend with many contacts overseas. [...]
November 15, 2007 at 4:37 pm
fyi we are researching why this website is banned in Turkey
November 15, 2007 at 5:43 pm
Banned in Turkey! So sweet. I thing it’s because Ataturk a bad motherfucker. I don’t think they are digging on our patois… in the States that’s bad meaning good.
November 16, 2007 at 6:11 am
Hello all. I have done some digging as well and apparently the banning of this site is not specifically related to this thread.
The rumour is that some weeks ago there were some threads about islam which were deemed offensive.
Still, I do not like the mentality of the current so called (by the Bush administration) moderate islamic government that unfortunately rules Turkey. The term “Moderate islam” is a term created by President Bush that has no meaning whatsoever, it’s like being moderately pregnant. What the current US administration, especially Bush the avangelist, fails to realize is that Turkey had been a long time friend of the US, however now has less than 9% support from the Turkish people. The main reason for this is the Bush administration’s moderate islamic model for Turkey. I simply fail to understand the logic, intervening in countries like Afghanistan to eradicate fundamentalism but at the same time trying to influence secular countries like Turkey to be moderately islamic?
I believe it is up to the American people to get rid of Bush and elect someone with more common sense and specifically some knowledge of history.
One of Ataturk’s saying was “Peace at home, peace throughout the world”. Turkey has the means to achieve this as we have the second largest army in NATO. Unfortunately what a lot of people are talking here is if we will have to engage US troops in Northern Iraq. This is a very complicated topic and there are rights and wrongs on both sides, however the US administration needs to understand that Turkey will do whatever is needed to preserve the unity of this country.
To sum things up, I see no difference in the mentality of the current pro-islamic Turkish government and the avangelist Bush administration and this is leading to a disaster for both countries.
November 16, 2007 at 6:19 am
I would just like to add for the sake of clarification that I am actually in Turkey. As most of us know, there are always means of bypassing censorship in the internet – and elsewhere for that reason.
November 16, 2007 at 1:31 pm
[...] US – Secular or Christian Nation? The Delaware Liberal posed the question “Is the US a Secular Nation?” I read through it, including the [...]
November 16, 2007 at 2:27 pm
Per #32:
Looks like our ramblings are being dissected by someone who obviously believes we’ll eventually be judged by a great SkyDad.
Funny that he promotes his argument with the ol’ ambiguous “Creator” line in the Declaration of Independence (which really could mean anything from Mother Earth, a deity, or your parents and forefathers), but dismisses an verifiable quote from a founding father (who, btw, was there when all this shit went down) who created a legal document which was signed and ratified by our government. And this was only one decade after this country was founded. Talk about selective reasoning!
And it looks like Ruffian was not able to recognize ‘Evangelist = Evil’s Agent’ as an anagram. Sometimes there’s hidden truths in them, if you’re able to make that leap of faith!
His long, rhetorical post is just another case of American/christian exceptionalism at its worst.
November 16, 2007 at 9:18 pm
***I’ve seen and lived in different countries. To me US is ranked #1 in terms of conservatism. Churches are very powerful here. Churches are striving for power. You can see this just by start counting how many different churches exist. Since there is one Jesus Christ, why many different Churches.
***@ Turkish Citizen. You mentioned that “I believe it is up to the American people to get rid of Bush and elect someone with more common sense and specifically some knowledge of history.” I believe US has 10 to 50 years long strategyical plans. Therefore either Bush or Hillary aint gonna change things. I believe when someone? believes that plan is slowed down, than something happenes and faster moving president takes it over. Even if Hillary takes it over, i do not think US is going to get out of Iraq.
November 16, 2007 at 9:53 pm
@ Turksh citizen: I have found out that court lifted the ban. They announced it on 11/1/07 and started to lifting the blocks on 11/7/07. How the heck it works? So are you still not being able to see this site without logging into anonymouse.org or by changing your dns numbers?
November 19, 2007 at 9:36 pm
speaking of Ataturk —> http://www.whoshouldliveagain.com/vote.php
November 20, 2007 at 12:37 am
WTF?!?!?!? Hitler at #3?
What? Live again so we have a opportunity to execute him?
November 20, 2007 at 12:56 am
Now he is at #2… Yikes.
November 20, 2007 at 4:50 am
@Turk, well the court may have lifted he ban but as of this morning I am still greeted with the announcement that the court has banned access to this site.
Actually, come to think of it, there is a major strike at telekom so let’s give them the benefit of the doubt and assume for the time being that the ban is still in effect due to that strike.
As for your other point, it is not just a matter of the US getting out of Iraq, I was referring to the confused US policy that ends up strengthening fundamentalism, which regardless of its source -islam or christian- is a recipe for trouble.
The simple fact is: in a secular country the religious people can practice their beliefs as they wish but in a theocracy if you are not part of the communion you most likely do not have the right to live.
I have lived for quite a long time in the US and the general attitude towards religion outside the major cities (both in the US and in Turkey) is pretty much the same, meaning it does have a strong influence in daily life.
With all respect to those who do have genuine religious beliefs, unfortunately I believe this conflict of religious/secular systems is bound to go on much longer than any conflict between religions.
This is where the value of Kemalism (Ataturk’s ideals) really shows itself.
This also makes me wonder (actually it is quite clear) why both the US and the EU are trying to force Turkey to minimize and eventually abandon Kemalism and weaken the influence of its staunch protector, the Turkish military, on political life here.
November 20, 2007 at 9:48 pm
@Turkish Citizen: I agree with you but the true meaning of Kemalism is not understood by lots of Turkish people now, outside of a handful of thinkers, because it is not accurately and scientifically studied nor taught to the incoming generations. Turkish education system badly failed to inculcate in the nation the reasons and goals of the real fundamental reforms. The youth was and is still fed with a casual and historical recounting of the heroic wars and of the formation of the republic, instead of being taught the reasons and objectives of the wars, and of the republic: the real fundamental reforms. Turgut Ozal started to chance our education system but his timeless death stoped that process.
Such Turkish governments, just like this RTE goverment, supported by US, need to adjust themselves with changes. But i do not see that. I see it other way around. RTE and his cabinet wants to slowly but surely undermind Kemalizm and try to kill it.
But, lets see what Kemal Ataturk said: “Nations insisting on keeping traditions and beliefs unsupported by logical arguments find it difficult to progress, if they can progress at all. Nations which cannot adapt to the conditions of progress cannot see life in a reasonable and practical light.”
Guess what…RTE is not doing it…Denying it..For what?? For his own goal…
RTE needs to understand that sovereignty does not belong to any religion nor to God!
It squarely belongs to the people and to the people alone “without any condition or limitation.”
Again, Kemalizm says, or Ataturk said: “Our government, our state are a state and government founded directly and solely by the people and of the people, they are called Republic. There is no longer a separation between the government and the people, the government is the people, and the people are the government. The government is now fully aware that it is not separate from the people, that the people is now the master.”
Aaaan, religion needs to be kept on the side. To me, country should not have a religion. People can. Theocracy in general, religion in particular do not allow freedom of thought, democratic society, sovereignty of people, hence advancement. People must have sovereignty in order to be able to be independent and to advance. To challenge secularism is tantamount to endangering the sovereignty of the people (democracy). Once the people are robbed of their sovereignty they will cease pursuing progress. Consequently, they can no longer maintain a competitive and strong existence in the advanced and ever advancing world.
Well…it is becoming a long long write up.
Bottom line is we have to beat Bosnia tomorrow to go to EURO2008…Come on Turkey, beat Bosnia…
November 21, 2007 at 6:53 am
@Turk, fully agree with your assessment. As much as I accept and respect every person’s right to believe and practice in any religious system they choose, I also have the right to not be involved or governed by any religious system. Anything that forces me to do otherwise clearly falls into the category of self-preservation and is a danger to me.
In Turkey we seem to have a bad habit, we first elect people and then educate them on the principles of democracy.
I probably have a little more insight into Ataturk’s life and his accomplishments as my grandfather was his schoolmate in the military academy and a brother-in-arms during and after the independance war. All I can say is that during his time and in the 40s Turkey was a much more modern and secular country than it is now. Turkey has been under constant pressure from the wahabi Saudi Arabia and the shiite Iran as they consider Turkey a danger to their totalitarian fundamentalist regimes.
Turkey is the only predominantly moslem country that has a true democracy. Sure, there are things to improve but considering that no other islamic country in the world even comes close to Turkey, it’s clear that we have been doing a lot of things right and it is just not sensible to pursue paths that will take us several centuries back as far as human rights go.
The western countries need to understand the special circumstances of Turkey and our genuine desire to be a part of the civilized world instead of falling into a path of chaos and darkness. Supporting the current RTE government may cater to the short term interests of these countries but on the long run it will create more problems than they can handle.
I believe that democracy – even if it may be somewhat flawed at times – is still the best way to go.
November 23, 2007 at 9:37 am
Well, we are going to EURO2008 but this site is still not accessible from Turkey. I have a quesy feeling that things may get worse with some new laws supposedly being drawn up in conformity with EU laws.
November 23, 2007 at 9:41 am
Well keep us posted and thanks for going through the trouble of getting to the site. In the end, I hope Turkey lives up to the ideals of Ataturk.
November 24, 2007 at 6:12 am
Hello everyone,
The ban on accessing wordpress continues.
The European Union is drawing up new legislation that bans access to sites that deal with child pornography, illegal gambling etc. Although I full heartedly agree with all legal punishment against such inhuman acts, I still believe cencorship is not the way to go. Unfortunately, Turkey is still under the illusion that it will be accepted into the EU, therefore a compatible version of that law is going to be enforced here. The law as it is worded is very vague and potentially any site can be censored (e.g. for voicing any opinion against the prime minister or the ruling party). What complicates things even further is that the Turkish Telekom that owns the internet infrastructure has been sold by the current government to an Arab consorsium as part of the privatization demanded by EU and they seem to have their own idea of what to allow people to read and what not.
The topic of whether Turkey should still persue membership in EU should perhaps be left to another discussion but suffice it to say that partnerships can only be achieved on equal terms and nothing less.
Having said all this, a good majority of Turkish people still believe and support Ataturk’s ideals and the secular system and I believe these troubled times will pass.
I hope the same for the American people.
December 7, 2007 at 8:31 pm
Hi
Just want to share that I teach in a public classroom with my door shut. Everything I teach is pro GOD and pro CONSERVATIVE although I do give the liberal side when I deem it important to the argument.
cya
December 11, 2007 at 8:56 am
jason330, thanks for your good wishes. Though not directly related to this topic, I would like to make a point to help clear some misconceptions in the west. The Turkish military is by law required to protect the laic state of Turkey. Laicism is different than secularism in that all the public domain belongs to the state with no influence of religion whatsoever. The Turkish military has traditions dating back a thousand years and is not like some South American military. Please keep this in mind if in the future you hear about a coup d’etat in Turkey by the military. This is not something we wish for but may be necessary to prevent islamists taking over our state.
I’m just baffled that the US and some European countries still support the islamist government in Turkey. Could they possibly be trying to finish off a process that failed in World War 1? What they fail to realize is that Turkey is their only chance to avoid a full scale military confrontation with the islamic world.
There is just no way to reconcile with fundamentalists, we have learnt that from experience.
I was amused at how cozy the islamist prime minister and the Pope were when he visited Turkey.
I’m afraid that the situation is going towards a point of religious fundamentalists versus those who choose to live by non religious laws regardless of religion and country. This is the greatest obstacle that humankind will have to face this century. I hope that there are enough sensible and capable leaders (none that I see now) to avoid this disaster for mankind.